Tough Love

[00:00:18] Hello everyone. I am Andy coming to you from the United Kingdom again.

[00:00:23] And I'm again in Toronto today and my name is Scott.

[00:00:27] Fantastic to see you again, Scott.

[00:00:30] So welcome everyone to the Tea and Timbits podcast Global Perspectives on Business Development to Help You Prosper.

[00:00:37] Today we're going to be talking about tough love.

[00:00:41] But before we explain what we have in mind there, Scott, do you have a story for us?

[00:00:47] Yes, I do. I do.

[00:00:50] Are we both wearing black based on this topic here, Andy?

[00:00:53] Yes, maybe that's sending a bit of a message there.

[00:00:58] Yes, if you can't see us, we've matched our outfits coincidentally today.

[00:01:03] So I was just reflecting on the a couple of sort of related situations.

[00:01:09] I have had two sales situations lately where the client wasn't convinced and they needed to be sold.

[00:01:17] Now that sounds ridiculous because this is for Tiger with a sales podcast and or Tiger with sales teams went up.

[00:01:22] But I don't mean convinced about hiring us specifically.

[00:01:26] I mean, convinced that they even had a problem.

[00:01:30] And so they kind of had this, you know, innate feeling that they needed something to be fixed.

[00:01:36] And they felt there was a priority there.

[00:01:39] And then they just sort of dumped it on me to say, you know, yeah, but explain to me why I should address this problem.

[00:01:46] And I, you know, in one, there were two separate cases because one was they really needed help getting the rest of their business on board.

[00:01:56] And in that case, I said, you know, no, I can't help you like call me back when you're ready to evaluate if we're the right people to help you with your problem.

[00:02:05] But you've got to you've got to know that the problem is worth addressing.

[00:02:09] In the second scenario, I could tell the person and the business had the need to have the budget.

[00:02:15] They they actually knew that we were the right fit.

[00:02:18] They just needed to build the confidence up internally and help socialize the quote unquote the argument for, you know, why we were going to do this and what where the value was was going to be so I just I just thought I'd share that because it was the same thing.

[00:02:34] Yeah, because it was the same question that I got in two different situations and treated them very differently.

[00:02:40] No, very good.

[00:02:41] Well, what was the outcome of this?

[00:02:45] Well, one of them, the first one, you know, was a very quick sort of sales engagement. It stayed in the pipeline for about three weeks.

[00:02:54] The second one is an ongoing conversation and we're actually going to do some more work to build business case and collateral and, and that kind of thing and really shore up the foundation so that when we get to work on the project it's got a really, you know, strong starting point.

[00:03:12] Very good. Very good. Well, let's move into today's topic which is tough love.

[00:03:20] It's something that I had wanted to talk about and I thought the terminology just came to me just before we started recording.

[00:03:30] But it's about dealing with underperformance and working with with teams and with colleagues who are not not doing as they should or not performing in the right way.

[00:03:45] So before you continue, like we've done like tons of prep for this episode, right? Which is basically you put into the chat what topic you thought you we should talk about and I said yes.

[00:03:55] And then we hit record. So when I saw the topic idea I was like, oh that's a good one in response to client situations.

[00:04:03] So you're talking about internally and immediately I had an external scenario.

[00:04:06] So why don't you go first and sort of, you know, share what your, what your thoughts are and I'll see if it dovetails in.

[00:04:13] No, of course. Absolutely. So I mean, what I'm referring to is the scenario where you have a sales person on the team who is continually not delivering and not meeting their numbers and how to deal with that because I think, I think what happens is a lot of sales managers.

[00:04:37] They're very busy. And they'll occasionally, you know, they'll look at the numbers and go, oh, you know, you need to, you need to look at that. You need to focus on that.

[00:04:43] And that's where it sort of stops. And that conversation doesn't really evolve from there. You'll have the coaching and you're going, oh, you know, a bit behind the numbers. How are you going to do it?

[00:04:52] They get a little bit of information back. And then they go, yeah, fine, carry on.

[00:04:58] There needs to be a plan in place. And the, you know, the conversation does sometimes need to progress from that as well. So I think it's very important that we share our perspectives on how to deal, how to help, you know, a colleague who is underperforming or a team member who is underperforming, but also being willing to escalate that and raise that up and give that tough feedback when it does get to the point of going,

[00:05:27] you know, this has been going on for three months now. You're still not hitting your numbers. We're having a conversation. You keep telling me you have this plan. You keep telling me you're working on this, but I'm being anything happening.

[00:05:38] What can we do together to turn this around? Because if we can't turn this around, then there needs to be a different conversation taking place.

[00:05:46] Well, and I would suggest you have to be, I guess, I guess there's a progression of those conversations.

[00:05:51] When you sort of start to see sort of the deviation from, you know, what you're expecting in a, with a big enough gap that it warrants conversation to that nature, then I think you have to put the timeline in place and say, well, right now we're going to just, you know, put you on notice that we're going to have to have another conversation, but probably the next conversation has to say,

[00:06:12] okay, all right, if this isn't reached by, you know, 90 days from now, then, you know, it's the problem is just going to have to solve itself.

[00:06:20] Yeah, but I think there needs to be a progression even before you get to that point. I think it shouldn't come as a surprise to, you know, the sales person who's underperforming that they're, you know, that they're now suddenly on notice or that they're, you know, they're getting the spotlight on them.

[00:06:36] They should have been given, you know, the ongoing coaching that sales managers and sales leaders are supposed to give them that colleagues senior colleagues should see and go, you know, I see your, you know, is there anything we can do to help.

[00:06:49] There may of course be an occasion where you've got a person on your team who actually is underperforming and is actually a drain on the, you know, on the emotions and the energy of the rest of the team as well.

[00:07:00] And then maybe it's not even worth having that three month conversation, maybe it's best to just sort of go, sorry, you know, you're not performing, you're bringing the energy of the team down.

[00:07:09] You're no longer welcome in this.

[00:07:10] Yeah, I mean, however you have to position it.

[00:07:13] I think it's entirely different when and so, you know, we have individual contributors who listen and we have managers and so I think also if you're an individual contributor, and you know, you know, you're not hitting your numbers.

[00:07:27] It's reflected in your paycheck.

[00:07:29] It's reflected in your dashboard and your CRM.

[00:07:33] If you know that you're not reaching your numbers do not wait for somebody to bring it up.

[00:07:41] You will if if you're if you're honestly so be honest with yourself if you're committed to the business, the organization if you honestly believe that you have the skills and the market trade and well actually never blame the market but

[00:07:54] if you have faith that it can it can be fixed.

[00:07:59] It can be addressed.

[00:08:00] You need to bring it up before your manager does you need to say listen, I need to talk to you about this because I know the numbers aren't where they need to be there not where I want them to be I know they're not where you want them to be.

[00:08:12] And I want you I want us to have a conversation now before you initiate the conversation.

[00:08:18] Yeah.

[00:08:19] If you do that.

[00:08:20] It's a completely different outcome.

[00:08:22] Absolutely, absolutely.

[00:08:24] Because then then that individual contributor has shown that they understand the situation and that they want to do something about it.

[00:08:31] They want to improve.

[00:08:33] And it's that willingness to do it.

[00:08:35] I mean, yeah, it can turn out of course in that process that maybe sales isn't suited to them maybe the particular market or the product or the responsibilities they have answered to them.

[00:08:45] That's fine.

[00:08:46] The structure was coming out of that organization.

[00:08:48] Yeah, yeah.

[00:08:50] Absolutely.

[00:08:52] And you it's it's it's good enough to say we need to have the conversation.

[00:08:59] It's best to say and here's what I think has been some of the contributing factors but it's it's best to say.

[00:09:08] And here are some ideas I have on what we what we can do to remediate.

[00:09:14] It's a starting point for conversation.

[00:09:16] Your manager may have different opinions.

[00:09:18] You need to be ready to have some give and take there.

[00:09:22] But I've had both situations happen where somebody is not delivering and the contributor just kind of goes along waiting for me to act and then it's yucky.

[00:09:34] And I've had it where somebody else brings it forward to me and says, you know, let's let's figure this out because we got to make a change in direction.

[00:09:42] But overall company leadership as well looking at the whole sales team and going, what's happening here?

[00:09:48] Why are the numbers not not matching?

[00:09:50] Why? Because what you what I think is often forgotten is that, you know, when you've got a person on the team who is not performing, that puts a lot of pressure on the other people in the team to have to fill that gap.

[00:10:04] And they have to raise their game in order to cover the losses or the, you know, the failed targets that the other person isn't hitting.

[00:10:12] And if the sales manager isn't addressing that and isn't addressing that to them, then they're sending a message very much to the rest of the team that they're not.

[00:10:20] Yes. Yes. Right. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:10:24] So as I said at the top of the conversation, I'm going to sort of pivot now is there was a there's all kinds of other tough love situations in business development and and and business management.

[00:10:36] And sometimes you have to have that conversation with your client, right? And say, you know, quite similarly this is not going well.

[00:10:45] Interaction needs to be taken and all the same things apply. You know it, they know it. They're frustrated. You're frustrated.

[00:10:54] You have to get ahead of it before the client, you know, pops a lid and and and it becomes a real a real crisis.

[00:11:05] The point that I wanted to make in this case, which now I think, you know, like this is where my brain went right away when I saw the topic was don't skip the step to practice some empathy in these situations.

[00:11:21] Why are we here? And so in the client situation, I'm like, why aren't that why isn't this going the way all other successful projects that we do go?

[00:11:32] Why is this engagement stickier, more troublesome? And the approach I advocate is you have to default to to a position of inherent trust.

[00:11:43] You have to assume the other person wants a positive outcome and they are not sabotaging anything intentionally.

[00:11:51] They may be out of their depth. They may have personal things going on. There may be other factors in the business.

[00:11:57] Take some time not to play, you know, professional therapist but to just say, let me just, you know, how's it going? What what what else is happening?

[00:12:08] What are the other priorities? What are the other projects on your plate? How was business right now because, you know, it might be that there's all these other kinds of external factors that are putting pressure on this individual on the project on the

[00:12:23] business context for why you started working together in the first place. And that will get that will lead you to common ground that allows you to evaluate if we just need to grind through this, or we need to adjust sort of the

[00:12:40] approach and make it make a make some make some adjustments.

[00:12:44] However, coming back to the tough love side of things it's also very important to push back in those scenarios and go look, you know, there may be these things going on there maybe these challenges in this scenario that stopping you being able to help us to deliver this project on time.

[00:12:58] Yeah.

[00:12:59] What can we do to take those away or can we take you out of it and replace you with someone else.

[00:13:06] Business still needs to take place, you know, we've got to be nice to people we've got to try and support people and absolutely we should try and you know, be a friend and as professional as possible.

[00:13:17] But nonetheless that there are still occasions when you have to, you know, be a little bit tough and say look, I don't think you're the right person for this to be involved in this project at this moment because of these other factors that are causing it because it's going to have an impact on their

[00:13:30] business and on your business and the same with the sales team and so on.

[00:13:33] So I would never say that.

[00:13:35] I know you.

[00:13:37] But if you want to say it for you.

[00:13:41] Listen, okay, hold on like I might I might I might be a bit more diplomatic about it. I might I might sort of help them come to that realization for themselves perhaps.

[00:13:53] I might give some some crit some balanced feedback to their manager, you know, or I might escalate it up so that there can be a higher level conversation about the capabilities or relationship but I would never go directly to the person and say I don't think that would be toxic.

[00:14:08] That would be that would that would there's no recovering from that you cannot love Canada.

[00:14:15] And then expect to maintain a cadence of weekly check ins with that person and have it lead to a positive outcome for anybody.

[00:14:25] Amazing.

[00:14:30] I think yeah.

[00:14:31] Anyway, I did fascinating.

[00:14:35] I think that's a nice thing as well.

[00:14:37] I mean, it's never easy to have a tough conversation with someone, but it doesn't mean that you should avoid having that conversation.

[00:14:44] It's just different ways to put it.

[00:14:47] Yeah, I know.

[00:14:51] I lost my train of thought there was something else I was going to add into there but I think we've I think we've I think we've covered some good basis there I think that the the core concept is, you know, don't don't avoid.

[00:15:02] Oh, that's it came back to me hope.

[00:15:05] It's so easy in these in these situations to fall back on hope and wishful thinking and maybe if we just go one more week it'll get better or the problem will solve itself or we're over budget but maybe I can recover it later or you know what like we missed a deadline but maybe then in the next

[00:15:25] stage I can find an efficiency or double up a resource and then you and then you can't and then it just snowballs and then on your back foot and then you should have told them two weeks ago but you didn't.

[00:15:38] So now make it even harder to have that conversation there because I got but that wasn't a problem two weeks ago and I was doing the same thing then you know it's like yeah.

[00:15:46] Right.

[00:15:47] So, so you that is your nemesis in these situations is hope and wishful thinking.

[00:15:54] So I think that's one thing you need to be very aware of this are you going on hope and are you are you are you just binding your time and and you know expecting things will solve themselves that will almost never solve things for you so anyway.

[00:16:13] Great job.

[00:16:14] Thank you.

[00:16:15] That was a good one.

[00:16:17] No, it was very interesting and what I liked there is the is the different perspectives I mean the the I have nothing against the sort of the Canadian way of doing things.

[00:16:28] It is it is it's a it's a cultural difference there.

[00:16:33] I think in the US even it would be a little bit more in line with sort of my more British direct approach there, but I'm not saying that's a better approach.

[00:16:44] It just happens to be the approach that I'm more familiar with and more comfortable with, but I think you know again you've got to be aware of the cultures that you're working with and also in a multinational environment you're going to be different cultures in a team so yes.

[00:16:59] Okay, can be definite benefits to to a more.

[00:17:05] We're definitely going running into overtime here but let's let's let's let's get I cannot respond to that one.

[00:17:13] The, the point I'm going to make here is if you are on the receiving end of that kind of direct feedback.

[00:17:25] It's very easy, maybe only for Canadians to take it personally to say like they're attacking who I am as opposed to the situation and the circumstances that I'm a part of.

[00:17:40] So, you do have to practice some detachment when that is sort of happening to you as well.

[00:17:51] Don't ignore it but remember that there's a business situation here not a personal situation.

[00:17:57] Although sometimes it can be a personal situation sometimes it can be.

[00:18:00] Yeah.

[00:18:01] Okay, that's it right.

[00:18:02] All right.

[00:18:03] Thank you very much.

[00:18:04] Anyone who's listening wants to get in touch with us was a little more about tough love from either perspective and either side of the ocean.

[00:18:13] You're welcome to do so via T and Tim bits.com where you will find many ways to get in touch and many ways to stay and listen and connect with us.

[00:18:22] Thank you.

[00:18:23] Thank you for the next episode and he thinks shirts not black ones.

[00:18:27] Thank you very much.

[00:18:28] Thank you everybody.