Avoiding Burnout

[00:00:18] Hello everyone, I'm Andy coming to you from the United Kingdom again.

[00:00:24] And I'm Scott doing one more session here in sunny San Juan, Puerto Rico.

[00:00:29] Love it. Love it. That's fantastic. Welcome everyone to the Tea and Timbits podcast,

[00:00:34] Global Perspectives on Business Development to help you prosper. Today we're going to

[00:00:40] be talking about burnout. But before we get into that topic, Scott, do you have

[00:00:47] any more stories from your holiday?

[00:00:50] Indeed.

[00:00:50] Well, I thought it was just an interesting anecdote I would share. We were, you know,

[00:00:58] when you get together, as I mentioned, these are sort of competitors, but we get to know

[00:01:02] each other and become friends as well. And get to know each other. And there's

[00:01:07] a lot we can learn from each other's businesses. But there's always this trepidation,

[00:01:10] especially as the event is getting going. And you end up in these little groups

[00:01:15] and somebody says, how's business? And there's this hesitation and this awkwardness.

[00:01:21] And everybody wants to say, yeah, no, it's good. Everything's fine over here.

[00:01:26] And it sort of went around the circle like that. There was a few of us standing

[00:01:28] around. And then the last person was like, oh, God, Q1. It was the it was a

[00:01:34] slog. And then everybody else goes, yeah, yeah, it was it was it was a soft

[00:01:43] one for us too. So there was this hesitation and not wanting to share.

[00:01:46] And then as soon as somebody just sort of was like, oh, what have I got to lose?

[00:01:49] I'm going to yeah, no, we had some challenges and it was a struggle and it

[00:01:53] didn't turn out the way we wanted it to. And then all of a sudden we're

[00:01:56] all able to say, yeah, yeah, we had that too. And then we're talking about

[00:02:00] the challenges. And then all of a sudden we're realizing, wait a minute,

[00:02:04] hold on, we're in this broader macro economic environment. We're all in the

[00:02:08] same industry and it's and it's not just us that are sort of dealing with some

[00:02:14] of some of these challenges. And then we got in a wonderful conversation

[00:02:18] because we've got this macro economic situation where economists are telling

[00:02:22] us inflation is down and the economy is doing great. But well, wait a

[00:02:27] minute, why did we have, you know, a soft Q1? What what's this all about?

[00:02:32] And there's all kinds of reasons. And but but that was just great to be

[00:02:35] able to sort of drop our guard, be a little bit more vulnerable and have a

[00:02:40] great conversation that said, wait a minute, why is this all not the way we

[00:02:44] think it should be? Oh, my goodness, it's not just me.

[00:02:47] It's all of us together. And what are some of those influencing

[00:02:52] factors despite the fact that we're being told the economy is great?

[00:02:55] So just a quick question of curiosity. The the person who was willing to

[00:03:03] admit and accept that things were not actually as good as they should be.

[00:03:10] Where are they from? Texas.

[00:03:13] OK, interesting. Interesting.

[00:03:16] Yeah, I thought you were going to suggest somewhere like Eastern Europe or

[00:03:19] something. No, yeah.

[00:03:23] So yeah, I do.

[00:03:26] I do like it when you have a when you have a room with with different

[00:03:29] cultures, though, because there's there's usually one or two cultures in

[00:03:33] there that are typically much more comfortable with going, no, things are

[00:03:36] not as good as they should be.

[00:03:37] And I think that's really nice.

[00:03:39] Well, this group does.

[00:03:40] Yeah, this group does have that dynamic.

[00:03:42] There were people from South America and Europe and the UK and what not.

[00:03:48] And yeah, anyway.

[00:03:51] So we get into our topic.

[00:03:52] Yes, absolutely. So today talking about burnout,

[00:03:56] what would you say would be a key takeaway for people

[00:04:01] that you'd like to to have from your perspective, Scott?

[00:04:05] I think that

[00:04:08] it is about recognizing the fact that you need to take a break.

[00:04:12] Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes it's it's we talk about balance,

[00:04:16] but sometimes that has to swing much more dramatically

[00:04:21] in favor of some rest.

[00:04:24] Yeah, yeah.

[00:04:26] Yeah, I'm going to say

[00:04:28] one of the key takeaways that I want people to go away with is to

[00:04:34] build a routine, build a solid routine that allows you downtime,

[00:04:37] it allows you personal development time, allows you to focus on

[00:04:40] personal development, because right without that,

[00:04:44] you will allow your calendar and your schedule and your time

[00:04:47] and your life to fill up with work related things

[00:04:50] and being busy all the time and keep yourself busy.

[00:04:54] And and that that's, you know, that's not effective.

[00:04:58] Right. So I think

[00:05:01] the reason that we thought this would be worth having a conversation

[00:05:04] together about is there was sort of a recognition that

[00:05:08] this is this is happening to us and individually

[00:05:13] and to other people that we that we work with and interact with.

[00:05:17] And I mean, you sort of mentioned

[00:05:21] there's probably a cultural element to this as well.

[00:05:24] But, you know, feeling like and I think it's especially

[00:05:29] it's true in all business roles.

[00:05:32] But I think in a in a business development role,

[00:05:36] you never want to take your foot off the gas.

[00:05:39] And there can be sort of an overwhelming or,

[00:05:43] or, you know, real aggressive drive to just keep,

[00:05:47] you know, keep going and and grinding harder.

[00:05:52] And if the results aren't coming

[00:05:55] or, you know, or if I want to be the the top

[00:05:59] of the leaderboard, I have to keep going.

[00:06:02] And there's a cultural

[00:06:04] thing as well as a corporate situation.

[00:06:08] And and I think we're seeing that a lot, would you say?

[00:06:12] Yeah, I think so.

[00:06:12] And I think I think also a generational thing.

[00:06:14] I think a lot of leaders in businesses

[00:06:17] often see that the sales team are not bringing in the results

[00:06:22] and therefore they're just not working hard enough.

[00:06:25] They're not putting in enough hours.

[00:06:26] They're not putting in enough time.

[00:06:27] They're not doing enough things.

[00:06:28] And that increases the pressure on the sales leaders

[00:06:31] who increase the pressure on the sales team.

[00:06:33] And and then you just end up in a situation

[00:06:36] where you start to feel that, you know, well, I can't take that time off.

[00:06:39] I can't, you know, I can't have that free time.

[00:06:40] I can't allow myself half an hour to go to the gym

[00:06:42] because, you know, I could be selling in that time.

[00:06:45] I could be doing business development.

[00:06:46] I could be doing prospecting, you know.

[00:06:47] And however, you know,

[00:06:50] forgetting to do personal development, working on yourself,

[00:06:55] working on your personal development, be it mental, physical or both.

[00:07:01] If you don't allow yourself time to do that, you will not be effective,

[00:07:04] you know, because you won't you won't rest.

[00:07:07] And if you don't rest, you know, you won't regenerate.

[00:07:10] And if you don't regenerate, you won't be effective.

[00:07:12] And so actually, the irony is doing not saying doing less work,

[00:07:17] but doing structured work where you can actually put the time in.

[00:07:21] Because I think, you know, if you want to work 12 hour days,

[00:07:25] then that's fine.

[00:07:26] But then block it with with elements of free time and time

[00:07:31] where you actually are allowing yourself time to relax,

[00:07:33] to recuperate, to refresh, making sure that you've got meal times

[00:07:37] in there where you actually dedicate that to meal times,

[00:07:39] not sitting at a desk, you know, doing work or eating in a,

[00:07:42] you know, in a car on the way to your next meeting

[00:07:46] that you've got actually time to follow me around again.

[00:07:49] Yeah. But it is typical of all of us.

[00:07:52] I mean, I'm just as guilty of it as well.

[00:07:54] You know, I know that when I'm when I'm sitting on a plane,

[00:07:56] I'm going to get a meal.

[00:07:57] So that's my lunch or dinner, you know.

[00:08:00] So you you were advocating for routine

[00:08:05] as a as a as a remedy for burnout.

[00:08:10] Why is routine a remedy and what?

[00:08:14] Give me a little bit more detail about what you mean there.

[00:08:18] Well, typically, if you if you can allow yourself

[00:08:22] a structure so that you get up on time,

[00:08:25] that you then start the day with

[00:08:29] some sort of exercise, some sort of

[00:08:32] we'd be at mental or physical.

[00:08:34] It doesn't matter at this point.

[00:08:36] And then a small element of planning for the day

[00:08:39] and just making sure that you've got your,

[00:08:40] you know, things that you want to achieve that day

[00:08:43] and how are you going to achieve that scheduling?

[00:08:44] And some people do that the night before.

[00:08:46] But go through it again that morning,

[00:08:49] then go into the day, you know, actually the actual actions of the day

[00:08:53] and then have some period of time scheduled again for some,

[00:08:57] you know, personal developments and personal regeneration and so on.

[00:09:01] But make sure it's scheduled, because if it's not scheduled,

[00:09:04] you will allow yourself to go, yeah, I've got time.

[00:09:07] Oh, look, I've got back to back Zoom meetings for four hours.

[00:09:11] But great. I've got a gap there of half an hour.

[00:09:13] I could go and, you know, go home and do the washing or walk the dog

[00:09:17] or whatever. Oh, no, no, actually, there's another half an hour

[00:09:19] Zoom meeting. I'll do that instead.

[00:09:21] And I'll sit here and eat my lunch instead.

[00:09:23] And ask someone else to help me with that.

[00:09:25] So I think what you're saying there is like, you know,

[00:09:28] it's good to have structure to the day so that you don't just,

[00:09:32] you know, rise and grind and get on, you know,

[00:09:34] start sprinting towards the finish line.

[00:09:37] And try and conquer everything.

[00:09:40] Or be a slave to your email or whatever.

[00:09:42] Because that's something a lot of people fall victim to is that,

[00:09:47] oh, the first thing they do in the morning is they open up their emails.

[00:09:49] They start answering the messages. Yeah.

[00:09:50] Yeah. Correct.

[00:09:52] And then they go, oh, that's the direction my day is going.

[00:09:54] It's like, no, no. OK.

[00:09:55] Schedule the emailing as well.

[00:09:57] You know, checking your emails happens at a certain time in the day

[00:09:59] and then respond to those emails and then carry on with your day.

[00:10:03] You've got your day structured.

[00:10:04] It doesn't matter. Your emails will not hijack your day.

[00:10:07] And if there is something that comes in as priority, then of course,

[00:10:11] you've got the opportunity to go, right.

[00:10:12] OK, actually, I can take this thing from my schedule

[00:10:15] and move that to another day so that you don't forget it.

[00:10:17] Because the problem is a lot of salespeople are really,

[00:10:20] really bad at administration and trying to remember all of the different

[00:10:25] things that need to take place will not happen.

[00:10:27] And that's why CRM systems are often badly updated.

[00:10:30] That's why very often, you know, we end up

[00:10:33] at the end of the month going, oh, no, no, I still haven't done

[00:10:36] my expenses from, you know, January and it's, you know, it's middle of May now.

[00:10:41] That's funny.

[00:10:43] I mean, I schedule lunch in my calendar every day now.

[00:10:48] And everybody knows that, you know, on my team,

[00:10:51] that that is actually reserved time.

[00:10:55] I, you know, I do say, listen, yes, if you need to grab me,

[00:10:59] if no other time works, you know, check with me

[00:11:02] and I'll tell you if I can use that time for for a working lunch with you

[00:11:06] or something like that.

[00:11:07] But like way more often than not, I get my lunch to myself,

[00:11:12] which is a good little, I think, sort of

[00:11:16] example of what you were espousing.

[00:11:20] I will say, however, but that, I think, can also lead to to to burn out.

[00:11:27] You feel like you have to maximize every minute of the day.

[00:11:31] I see structured and I have a routine and I have to get up every morning

[00:11:35] and I have to go to the gym and I, you know, need to optimize the day

[00:11:39] so that I've got it perfectly scheduled and lined up.

[00:11:42] And I operate that way.

[00:11:46] And then it transfers into life at home and, you know, took a week off.

[00:11:52] And it was just as busy because we had packed every day with something to do.

[00:11:58] And but not all the time.

[00:12:00] And I think, you know, and my wife was good at sort of pointing this out for me

[00:12:04] and saying like, why don't you just chill, dude?

[00:12:08] You know, I got this one.

[00:12:10] You you you here's the remote control and there's Netflix.

[00:12:14] And I haven't seen you do this in a while.

[00:12:16] And it was delightful.

[00:12:18] And and and then sort of a similar thing.

[00:12:21] Yes, I have a pretty, you know,

[00:12:25] good routine at the gym.

[00:12:28] And I was explaining this to my trainer and and he said, yeah, yeah, we're we're

[00:12:33] you know what? He goes for the next little while.

[00:12:35] We're we're just going to maintain

[00:12:37] because trying to trying to get get, you know, a new personal best

[00:12:42] or gain, you know, another level every time is not in the long run helping.

[00:12:50] You need to give yourself time to rest.

[00:12:54] And that is honest to goodness, decompression, low, low state of exertion

[00:13:00] so that physically and mentally you reenergize.

[00:13:06] So and that has happened to me very recently.

[00:13:10] And, you know, both of those circumstances that I just mentioned

[00:13:13] and and I've been much better for it afterwards.

[00:13:16] For sure. Yeah.

[00:13:17] Do you find it challenging, though, to

[00:13:20] to to change that mindset that you have, you know, the huh?

[00:13:25] But it is a pure sales mindset as well, isn't it?

[00:13:28] It's you don't want to give up.

[00:13:29] You want to keep going.

[00:13:30] You want to, you know, you want to do the next personal best.

[00:13:33] You want, you know, you want to do, you know, you did a hundred swings

[00:13:36] with, you know, with the kettlebell last week and now you want to do

[00:13:40] one hundred and one today because, you know, well, if you don't, then

[00:13:43] you know, you haven't gotten it.

[00:13:45] Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

[00:13:46] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:13:47] I mean, I don't think it's at all unique to a sales or business

[00:13:50] development scenario.

[00:13:51] I think it happens in business and life and all kinds of different

[00:13:55] scenarios and especially, you know, I mean, I know our product delivery,

[00:13:58] our project delivery team, you know, will will run high and hot,

[00:14:04] you know, often.

[00:14:06] And because they're they're trying really hard to produce quality

[00:14:09] and maintain deadlines and and get ahead.

[00:14:14] And sometimes you need to make sure that

[00:14:17] you schedule some time, some time out.

[00:14:20] Yeah, no, it's really important.

[00:14:22] It's really important.

[00:14:23] Do you do things with your team to help them to

[00:14:26] to focus on personal development time as well in the.

[00:14:31] Yes, I think I might have mentioned this before.

[00:14:34] I mean, I actually on a regular basis, at least quarterly,

[00:14:38] but usually more often than that, ask them to tell me when they're next.

[00:14:44] Free day or vacation day is going to be.

[00:14:47] And a lot of times they'll say, oh, I don't know when it is.

[00:14:50] And I'll say, well, put it in your calendar right now.

[00:14:52] We're not moving on to the next agenda item until I see that you

[00:14:55] blocked your calendar at some point in the next month for a day.

[00:15:00] Very good.

[00:15:02] And we don't track vacation time

[00:15:06] down to the minute kind of kind of thing.

[00:15:09] I think everybody respects the fact that

[00:15:11] you know, they have a certain allotment of vacation time,

[00:15:15] you know, but there's a there's a hesitancy, I think, to go like,

[00:15:17] well, I know I have to go on vacation.

[00:15:19] I'm like, no, you can use your that time for yourself as well.

[00:15:23] Yeah, smaller, smaller increments.

[00:15:25] And if you still need a larger chunk of time,

[00:15:27] well, let's talk about how that works.

[00:15:29] OK, no, it's a very good structure and something

[00:15:32] I think that many leaders can learn from is making sure that their team

[00:15:37] as well also have have that focus and have that time to,

[00:15:41] you know, to reflect, refresh and and actually be more effective.

[00:15:45] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:15:47] Good chat. Thank you very much, Scott.

[00:15:50] So everyone, I hope you, you know, got a little something out of that

[00:15:55] and and we'll take some time in addition to listening to this podcast

[00:15:59] whilst doing plenty of other things as as we know you all doing.

[00:16:02] But if you want to get in touch with us and add an additional task

[00:16:05] to yourselves, then go to T and Tim, but it's not calm

[00:16:08] and you'll find many ways to get in touch with us and other ways to listen.

[00:16:12] So you can listen to us multiple times and multiple ways,

[00:16:14] which is a great way of engaging all your free time.

[00:16:17] There you go. Absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:16:18] What better way to free up to to enjoy your free time

[00:16:22] than listening to Scott and Andy talking?

[00:16:26] All right. Thanks, everybody.

[00:16:27] Thanks, Andy. Let's go.