Sales and Marketing: Better Together

[00:00:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Hello, everybody. Coming to you from the other side of downtown Toronto, I'm Scott.

[00:00:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And hello, I'm Andy coming to you from the United Kingdom again.

[00:00:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is the Tea and Timbits podcast where we talk about perspectives on business development

[00:00:36] [SPEAKER_00]: to global perspectives on business development to help you prosper. Good to see you as

[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_01]: always, Andy. Likewise. Likewise. And I feel a bit guilty sometimes when we say global

[00:00:47] [SPEAKER_01]: perspective when we consider the North American and British way of doing things as the global.

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_00]: But I'm on the Canadian and the British versions are fair enough. But, you know, I was, I was,

[00:01:01] [SPEAKER_00]: I rode my bike into the office and I'm recording from the studio in the office today and we're

[00:01:06] [SPEAKER_00]: doing an earlier morning session here. And it really felt like sort of the city was waking up

[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_00]: as I was biking into the office this morning. It was kind of neat. And I was just kind of

[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_00]: thinking about more of the, maybe not the global perspective, but the fact that just, you know,

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_00]: in a city, in a big city, there's just always so much going on. And I was thinking about sort of

[00:01:28] [SPEAKER_00]: all the lives that everybody's sort of living as I'm passing them. And some people are coming

[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_00]: into work and some people are going home from work. And some people are coming home from

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_00]: the bar. It was kind of fun to feel like I was part of the city rising this morning.

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's the great thing about cycling into work though, isn't it? Is that you get that

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_01]: perspective, you sort of get to hear and feel and be part of it in a different way than

[00:01:53] [SPEAKER_01]: you would being in the bubble of your car or a bus or something. You could definitely tell

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_00]: that like the cars on the road were still feeling like, this is an easy moment to drive

[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_00]: through the city. They were not yet like just resigned to the traffic and the congestion. So

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_00]: there was a little bit more sort of angst in the traffic flow, which I had to be aware of on the

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_00]: bike. Anyway, we are going to talk this month about marketing. Last month was about account

[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_00]: based selling and we touched on some marketing tactics in our last episode. We're going to

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_00]: talk more generically for a few episodes now about marketing, about sales and marketing together.

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that sort of crossover really, isn't it? Yeah, that's right. And so we'll start today with

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_00]: just that conversation about the interplay between these two disciplines and if you are,

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, if your responsibilities lie more on one side than the other,

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_00]: what we think about that anyway. And then we'll get into some more specifics in later episodes.

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm hoping that, you know, just people take away that reflection on how these two disciplines

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_00]: are sometimes even not two different disciplines and how they need to support each other.

[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_00]: So before we do that. Yes, I have. Go for it.

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I'm excited about this one. It was one I wrote about a little while ago and I haven't had an

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_01]: appropriate chance to sell it. To sell it, to tell it.

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_01]: See, bye bye it. Exactly. No, so this was a story that relates to a company that I was

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_01]: working with and their sales team, they were, you know, various different ages,

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_01]: very different people from different backgrounds and so on, as is always the case.

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_01]: What we found though, is that when we started looking at their personal stories and to try and,

[00:04:00] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, integrate that into the sales world, what we discovered was for many of them in this

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_01]: particular company that they had sales stories that aligned quite closely with the business

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_01]: culture, the business way of doing things and so on. And so it was really easy for us to

[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_01]: sort of bring that in and build that up and definitely something that we'd recommend, you know,

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_01]: other companies doing as well. However, there was one person there and his personal story was like

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_01]: so far removed from anything to do with the company. I mean he didn't have like it documented or

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_01]: anything but everything about his life and the way he was doing things, the way he was,

[00:04:38] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, living his life outside of work just did not fit with the company.

[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And we just had to ask him, why are you actually here? And it turned out that he was, you know,

[00:04:48] [SPEAKER_01]: genuinely interested in the product and the customers and the good relationships with

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_01]: the people and so on. This disconnect was so obvious and so vast that we'd spent a lot of

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_01]: time actually then workshopping with him to get him to sort of re-brand himself but

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_01]: not take away who he was but to, I suppose, market himself in a way.

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, did you find a way to like move his story closer to the business or to be able to find a way?

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_01]: We found a way of telling his story and linking that to the company story so that there was

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_01]: a parallel path that could run because the problem is as soon as someone started looking

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_01]: on his social media, they would just go, is this the same guy? Is this the guy who called us to try

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_01]: and sell us this particular product or to tell us about the value of this solution?

[00:05:42] [SPEAKER_01]: There was such an obvious disconnect straight away as soon as you saw him. So we're just trying to

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_01]: not take away any elements of it but to tell that story in a different way and to

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_01]: represent it in a different way and to link those two together and see, try and find those

[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_01]: benefits that because I enjoy and I'm going to go completely out of the wild now but

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_01]: because I enjoy fly fishing in the ice at the weekends.

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_01]: You've clearly never been fly fishing here.

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I know. Or ice fishing.

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I deliberately chose you.

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Come on over. I'll take you.

[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_01]: We can do both on the same weekend.

[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, just like this guy.

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_01]: No, but let's say he had this particular thing that was his personal hobby and he

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_01]: talked about and wrote about all the time and it was something that was so disconnected from

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_01]: industrial widgets that was being sold that I'm deliberately protecting him by avoiding this

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_01]: but it was very hard to find the connection there.

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_01]: But we tried to create a load of stories on social media to my experience of working in

[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_01]: industrial widgets allows me to understand when I'm fly fishing this and this

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_01]: and the other way around as well.

[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_01]: So I should have got permission to tell the story in the truthful way from him.

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I know that it does this and then yeah.

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's a common scenario and I think sometimes people don't want to blend those

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_00]: two narratives. I believe it's more authentic and impactful when you can find yourself in everything

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_00]: that you do but I appreciate the fact that that's not everybody's comfort zone.

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I one of the pieces of advice that that I share that we share in those moments is

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_00]: it's okay to have two personas out there in in the world and there's a you know

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_00]: ton of social you know social sites, social media networks. You can be your business

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_00]: self on LinkedIn and you can be your your personal self on Instagram for example.

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that those two things don't need to stand in contrast and but I also totally

[00:08:05] [SPEAKER_00]: am aligned with sort of the effort that you were after. It's like at very least come up

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_00]: with a narrative that allows this person to just be a little bit more who they are

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_00]: in the business context and that will translate into more confidence and more success.

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think so. I think so. It's just you know when you're

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_01]: you're deterring your customers by by giving them a narrative that doesn't match with the person they've

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_01]: just met on the telephone or a conference it can always be a little bit confusing. The telephone

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_00]: loses the telephone. Well hopefully everyone who listens.

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_00]: All right thank you for sharing. So as I mentioned the topic is around sales and marketing

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_00]: together, better together. I was sort of riffing on a episode teller right there live.

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_00]: What are your thoughts on how well this gets performed and what some of the friction points

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_01]: are when you when you do see it? Well some some do it well some don't. Some have some

[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_01]: companies have leaders who are responsible for both sales and marketing. It doesn't always work.

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I think people should be more specialized in their roles and you know but I think the importance of

[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_01]: sales and marketing being 100% aligned on what they're doing and sales not going oh well it's

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_01]: marketing's job to generate leads for us and marketing going well it's your job to generate

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_01]: business for the company so that we can talk about it. Give us some stories and give us

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_01]: some collateral to work with. So you know there's sometimes this disconnect and it's like an us and

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_01]: them thing and there's this battle and it makes no sense you know so I think in most companies

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_01]: it's really important to have the sales and marketing team sitting together

[00:09:58] [SPEAKER_01]: and that they are seen as one team with one goal and that they work out a way together

[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_01]: to go and do that and that they have a business that is driven by campaigns. Right yes so

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_00]: okay so I have two thoughts on this and sort of like one from each perspective here so

[00:10:18] [SPEAKER_00]: from a sales perspective if you are just expecting marketing to hand you leads then

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_00]: it's not going to work as effectively as if there's a collaboration between

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_00]: sales has the capacity to direct marketing efforts so I want I'm seeing success in this area or at

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_00]: least at the sort of sales leader to marketing leader perspective alignment on the focus the

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_00]: target who are we going to try and talk to where are we finding success how can we amplify that

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_00]: what are we hearing when we're having those conversations what does the sales team

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_00]: where are they finding momentum where are they energized already to go and and find success

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_00]: what I find quite often is that marketing comes up with those ideas in isolation oh wouldn't it

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_00]: be great maybe there's a market over here maybe we could build a campaign talk to this group

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_00]: in this way we'll put together some material we'll publish a white paper we'll do an event

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_00]: but meanwhile the sales team has got a lead list that's or they're working an account based

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_00]: selling approach and it's completely incongruous with what you know this new idea so if

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_00]: so sales has a responsibility to tell marketing we need more collateral to support us in this

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_00]: direction marketing needs to say well that's lovely that you're doing that but it's actually not

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_00]: where we're seeing potential for long-term growth at the company or the you know what our research

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_00]: tells us about the alignment of our value proposition with the perspective target so

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_00]: we don't want you to flip overnight but we we want you to start building a pipeline in this

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_00]: direction as well and here's how we're going to support you just far too often I've seen independent

[00:12:21] [SPEAKER_00]: well-intentioned if we build it they're going to be excited yeah by this collateral and and take it

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_01]: forward yeah that's a good observation I think I think this is why it's so important that

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_01]: that sales and marketing are aligned because you know if if marketing are developing campaigns

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and collateral for their dream customers but the sales team are working on customers that are not the

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_01]: same then you know it's not going to help neither neither party is going to be happy with that and

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_01]: you know it has to be a teamwork it has to be a you know a joint and then on on the marketing side

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_00]: it you are doing yourself a disservice if you do not connect like with front line sales folks

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_00]: if you've never sat in on a sales call if you've never spent time prospecting

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_00]: you are leaving so much impact on the table absolutely so so understanding

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_00]: it's one thing to get research done and build personas of target market and and ideal customer

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_00]: profiles but you never get to sit in front of an ideal customer you're looking for somebody

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_00]: that comes as close to that ideal as possible but there's always a deviation of some sort

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_00]: and if you can't appreciate that and and allow for some amount of variation and flexibility

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_00]: in the content the campaign and and whatnot now i think every marketer hearing what i just

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_00]: said we'll see like well listen like that's up to the salesperson like we're just giving them

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_00]: tools and a framework but i honestly believe if so much more effectiveness could come out of the

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_00]: the engagement if marketers spent more time

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_01]: riding shotgun for a little while absolutely it's it's something i always encourage with

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_01]: companies i work with as well both the marketing which i see as the you know the very beginning

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_01]: of the process and the customer service which i see as the other end of the process i think they're all

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_01]: important people who need to be involved in the sales process at some point and actually

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_01]: out there meeting the customers understanding the sort of things that they're asking

[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_01]: seeing who they are and having a face to it as well because you know the customer

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_01]: service people they often get a lot of crap from customers who you know when things go wrong and stuff

[00:14:54] [SPEAKER_01]: but that's very different and people treat people differently if they've met them face to face and

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_01]: if they know them in person and it takes away some of those rather hateful discussions that

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_01]: can sometimes go on and and i think it's the same with the marketing as you say you know because

[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_01]: it's very fun to do marketing and it's very easy to get carried away creating content

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_01]: developing things and you know doing your your efforts absolutely they're gonna love this

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_01]: the customer's gonna love this but if you've never actually spoken to a customer then how would you

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_00]: know yeah and and it's all about you know meeting them where they are right and and you might

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_00]: you might have a wonderful product that sell that solves tough problems and unlocks opportunity but i

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_00]: tell you if you come into an organization and they just finished some other software implementation

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_00]: or they've just gone through some sort of internal reorganization or whatnot it doesn't matter

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_00]: right like so it's a priority for the obviously it's a big pain point and they're going to take

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_00]: a look but um there's so many other factors that are being that are being considered here so

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_01]: anyway yeah spot on you know i think i think we can go around having the same conversation

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_01]: a few times because there's a lot of people out there who can really benefit from understanding

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_01]: the importance of the crossover with you know leaders as well as people in these departments

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_01]: because if you're working in that department then you know reach out to your sales colleagues

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_01]: or if your sales colleague reach out to your marketing department and take them with you you know

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_00]: and go i also think like when you're doing sales check-ins when you're doing pipeline reviews you

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_01]: need something from marketing in that meet oh yeah that's what i'm saying i mean it should be one

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_01]: team i don't believe it should be two different teams you know i think right yeah you're working

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_00]: together where's the campaign yeah absolutely um and i also think like it has value to get

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_00]: obviously this kind of collaboration going inside the business for all kinds of other

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_00]: reasons operations product um uh road mapping um all the rest um but i think um so as i was saying

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_00]: it's like well there's all kinds of occasions where even like the product you know architects and

[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_00]: or designers or solution uh you know consultants need need to understand what are we even saying up

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_00]: front um because if it's not uh aligned with the way that we do what we do uh you're you've just made

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_00]: my congratulations on the sale but i don't want to work it um so it's a it's a it's a general

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_00]: broader concept i think it's also common sense um but hopefully um you know if i'm going to

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_00]: sort of summarize the conversation at this point um and it's what what i said off the top

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_00]: you know if you're in one of these kinds of roles and you haven't had good collaborative

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_00]: interactions with your counterparts whether that's um um in sales or marketing think about what you

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_00]: can do to initiate that and and you you may think well my leadership doesn't do that and i'm kind of

[00:18:11] [SPEAKER_00]: stuck until they wake up to this realization i mean besides sending them that this podcast

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_00]: episode uh take which you should definitely do by the way yeah yeah take this take initiative to

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_00]: reach out to a colleague that's sort of at a parallel level and on the other side and just

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_01]: just keep going exactly a question for you scott um do you think there's a value in people taking

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_01]: on a crossover role so for example a salesperson having more marketing responsibilities or

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_01]: a marketing person having a an element of sales responsibility in their role well i

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_00]: definitely think that you cannot be an effective um business development person

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_00]: an effective sales producer if you don't understand and have your own marketing skills

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_00]: um and so in that respect i would i mean you're not in my business absolutely maybe not if

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_00]: you're selling something else but but you're you're you need to understand marketing as well as

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah you sales and and i think that is very apparent in the in the sales role um and and i

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_00]: think that if you're in a larger organization where you still need a marketing department to take on

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_00]: their responsibility for producing the content and the campaign yeah organizing them and executing

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_00]: them um and and could those people be more effective by having a closer better appreciation

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_01]: for sales absolutely yeah i mean if i just think about myself personally i understand marketing

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_01]: and i know you know what needs to be done and i've got a good eye for it but i have no skills

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_01]: in doing it myself you know so you know you introduce me in the execution exactly so you

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_01]: know photoshop canvass things like that and i usually have people who actually produce the

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_01]: stuff but i know what it should be i know how to look at i know where to put it i know what to

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_01]: do with it yeah i just have the skills myself to do it and that's fine right as you say i think

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_01]: having that knowledge is very important having that right you know and that it's the same for

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_01]: the marketing people we're not saying that they have to have the sales skills to be able to go

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_01]: out there and you know pick up the phone cold call someone and you know close a close a deal

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_01]: and negotiate a contract but what they should be able to do is understand that process right

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah i agree thank you cool all right um well i think that brings us to the end of our

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_00]: our episode and our conversation thanks as always andy um and if uh you are out there listening

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_00]: and want to know how to get in touch with us and see our catalog of back episodes and share

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_00]: this with your manager and all your friends please go to t and timbits dot com and we look

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_00]: forward to catching up on our inbox thank you very much go