We’ve all had that moment when a prospect says, “We need you to build X.”
And the tempting response is: “Brilliant. Where do we send the invoice?”
But this week’s episode reminded us that the better response is probably: “Interesting — how did you get to X?”
That’s where SPIN Selling comes in.
Situation.Problem.Implication.Need-Payoff.
It’s a simple framework, but a useful one. Not because it magically closes deals while we sit back looking smug — sadly, no methodology has managed that yet — but because it helps structure better conversations.
We talked about how SPIN can be used in discovery, prospecting, account management, customer service, and even those moments when someone arrives already convinced they know the solution. It gives us a way to slow down, understand the real issue, and reflect the customer’s world back to them before leaping into advice mode.
We also compared it with Challenger Selling and landed on something that feels pretty important: these frameworks work best when they’re combined thoughtfully, not treated like sacred tablets from Mount Sales.
Because, as usual, the answer is: “It depends.”
Deeply annoying. Often true.
[00:00:18] Hello everybody, I am one of your hosts Scott Snowden coming to you from Toronto. And I'm Andy Baqone coming to you from the United Kingdom where it's very dull and grey and wet and it's going to be good for the weekend. You don't need to add that when you say you're in the UK Andy, you can just say you're in the UK. Well I'm going to a festival this weekend and I'm just going to throw this in very quickly because it's a festival that takes place in the beginning of June, middle of June.
[00:00:47] Every year and some years it's amazingly hot lovely, but unfortunately often it has somehow managed to attract the worst and wettest weather ever. The festival is called download but it's been dubbed drown mode because it gets so bad. I look forward to weather's going to change before then. Yeah, I look forward to those social media posts to find out which one which one came true for you this year.
[00:01:16] Yes, we're having a lovely start to summer so I'm hoping it stays that way. Excellent. Well, and as usual, just to make sure everybody knows where they've tuned into this is not the Weather Network. Teahis is the Tea and Teaimbits podcast global perspectives on business development to help you prosper. And we're in the month of June. June, we decided to cover sales methodologies and everything we know about them, which means that it's basically Andy's month because I'm learning as I go.
[00:01:46] So before you teach us about the next sales methodology and I critique it on the fly, Andy, do you want to tell us a story that you haven't shared yet? I can definitely do that. I have started trying to record some stories. I've started trying to be better as well at writing things down and putting things out on social media.
[00:02:06] And one of my stories, which I've written down, is about that process, that importance of reflecting on your personal branding, your methodology, your messaging and what you want to be doing. Because it's something I've struggled with a lot for many years because I know you and I have had this conversation before, Scott. I know where this is going.
[00:02:29] But because I work across many different industries and different types of customers and I still have my own business and those businesses that I have are also across multiple industries. It has been very, very difficult for me. It's one of the things I've really struggled with is that personal branding, because where do I position myself and how do I do that?
[00:02:51] And a couple of years ago, I decided that I was going to try and utilize different social medias for different sort of areas that I work with. But I always felt that still the best business platform is LinkedIn. And so I tried to be a little bit of everything for everybody on LinkedIn.
[00:03:11] And that failed miserably, of course, because people do not want to see someone who's a generalist because then they don't know where to position them. They don't know what value they're bringing to them. So you may get lucky and that person may find a particular post that you've done, but then they start following you and they go, well, the next 10 posts, they were not interesting or relevant to me. And what's he doing talking about this subject or that subject? That's not relevant. And they forget about you.
[00:03:39] And so what I've been trying to do is trying to find what is that red thread that connects everything, all of the industries that I'm doing? What are the good crossovers? What are the things that work? And I think that's something that all of our listeners should be reflecting on because it's not about the company you work for. It's not about the services that you provide. It's not about who you are as a person. It's all of that. And try to bring all of that together and think, what is it that connects all of those things?
[00:04:06] So what is it about you that brings that all together? What is it about you that you like? What is it about you that makes you good at what you do? And then talk about that and focus on that. So taking that time to do that self-reflection, it took me years. So this isn't a quick or easy exercise at all. And you know, Scott, firsthand that I've been struggling with this for a long time. And I feel that I'm finally in a good place with it. And so I'm going to be continuing to build on this now.
[00:04:32] Well, I look forward to digging in on that conversation much deeper. Perhaps not in a recorded conversation, as we won't bore our listeners to death. But how did you use AI at all to help you with that exploration? Well, I did exactly that. Yeah. So based on some of the tips that you'd given me, I actually used two different AIs to sort of bounce off each other.
[00:04:59] I used one called Claude, which I've been advised was quite good for business. So I kind of uploaded my, I took my LinkedIn profile as it is. And you can actually get a printout of that in a PDF format. So I uploaded that to Claude and got Claude to then critique that, give me some advice on that and some guidance on that. And then I took what Claude had done, which I wasn't quite clear on, but then gave it to ChatGPT.
[00:05:27] And ChatGPT then challenged basically Claude. And then I took it back to Claude and said, well, actually, this, they said this, you know, what do you think about that? And actually, they learned from each other. And it was quite good. Both then getting very, very close to the same sort of area and the conclusion that I was trying to get to. And I was like, okay, now I can pick this up myself. Now I know where I am. But I had that bouncing off.
[00:05:53] And it was like using a peer, you know, but often your friends and your family and your connections and your colleagues, they're not going to spend the time to do it properly. Yeah. But no, it sounds like you're doing really well. Yeah. You're doing good. Yeah. Yeah. It's really exciting. I don't really understand all of that. Okay. Great. Whereas the AI is still being sycophantic, but at least it knows something about it. Yeah. Definitely worth doing. Well, that's good. That's good advice. Nice.
[00:06:20] I have used AI to sort of like go back and forth between ChatGPT and Claude like that before. It's kind of a neat interaction. I find, you know, it's kind of got a limited benefit versus just kind of being your own critique in the prompt. But yeah, sometimes, especially when you're sort of stuck on the thought process, it's kind of fun.
[00:06:46] And it often will unlock a little insight when you get the two of them working back and forth. Yeah, exactly. I mean, it didn't give me the answers. It gave me enough of the framework that allowed me to then fill in the gaps and go, yes, now I see it. Right. Well, thanks for sharing that story and letting me dig in a little deeper. But the true exploration will have to come later. We are going to talk about sales methodologies, like I promised at the top of the episode.
[00:07:15] And we have spin selling down for this week's episode. Andy, can you just kind of give me the quick briefing on what spin selling is? Yes. But then it wouldn't be a very fun episode. So we're going to have to dig a bit deeper anyway. Well, take it away. So spin, I'm sure you know, and I'm sure you've heard it mentioned many, many times and maybe explained, oh, we use spin. Do you use spin?
[00:07:43] But then spin is often not explained what it is. And it's essentially a sales process that has been very cleverly structured in a way that allows any type of sales or any sales person to be able to adopt it and adapt their circumstances. And it's essentially that you're starting with the situation.
[00:08:10] So, you know, how are things currently defined and how are things in a situation? You've got then the problem and then you've got the implication and then you've got the needs payoff. Yeah. Need to pay off. That's it. Yeah. Okay. All right. I was challenging.
[00:08:35] So in the sales process element of it, of course, what you're trying to do is you're trying to analyze what's going on. You're trying to analyze the situation. So you're looking, okay, how is this structured? What is it that you're actually trying to do? Where do things go wrong? And how are you going to implement it? And what resources and so on do you need? And then what's going to be the overall benefit at the end?
[00:09:05] And so you put that in the sales process. You've got the, you've kind of got the framework that allows you to be critical and self-reflect. But then you apply spin to forecasting and then you apply spin to the customer experience. Then you apply spin to, you know, like the account management, you know, the customer service side of things.
[00:09:30] And if you then put that, so you go, okay, what's the situation with our key accounts? You know, how are we doing things there? Do we have them segmented? Do we, you know, do we treat them differently depending on spend, depending on, you know, customer type, industry type, size of business, whatever. But also what are we doing and how are we managing those? And what are the opportunities that are potentially lost by doing things differently or doing things the way that we're doing them?
[00:09:59] And then would a change or an increase or a decrease in certain things create a better payoff for the people in it? And many different ways of applying it, but spin, situation, problem, implication need payoff. There you go. There you go. Okay. So interesting.
[00:10:21] You described it off the top as a sales process, but I, when you described it, I'm like, I, I, hmm. Any exposure to sales process that I've had, that I've articulated, that I've built for myself, that I've has,
[00:10:40] I would describe what you just articulated as a tactic to be employed at any stage of what I would consider a sales process. So in the work, in the way that I do things, it's like, oh, okay. It's sort of like, it's almost like managing objections. It's, it's almost like clarifying requirements. That's where spin works. Because you can use spin in all of those situations. Right.
[00:11:07] So that's why I call it a sales process rather than a methodology, because it fits in the whole process. Every step of the way, you put spin. So even in, you know, in your actual sales process, you, you can put spin over the top of your actual sales process, but then each step in your process, however that looks, however it's defined, however it's done, you take those four key things from spin and you apply them throughout.
[00:11:34] And essentially, you know, you're, you're helping, you know, even in the actual sales conversation, you're helping the customer kind of see the consequences of their worldview, because you're walking them through that process. You're helping them to look at the current situation and working their way through what the need to payoff is. Well, and in many ways, you're also sort of reflecting back what you're understanding. So it's a good, it's a good technique to make sure that the customer sees that you see them.
[00:12:03] And you're, and you're being really structured about the way that you're articulating the, I was going to say the whole situation, but that's the S of spin. You know, the whole, yeah, the whole situation, whatever. Again, I guess I'm splitting hairs, but that to me is not a process. That's a tactic. That's a, that's a specific way of completing a single conversation or exploring a little bit deeper.
[00:12:28] But when you're trying to advance things through a pipeline, it, it, it, it, that's what I think of when I hear like sales process. It's like, how do I get from top of funnel to signature? Signature and spin is something that I can see being employed when there's more clarity needed, when there's more certainty needed at any, any stage of that kind of a, a, a process. So again, I guess we're splitting hairs, right?
[00:12:58] Is it a, is it a methodology? Is it a process itself? I guess it doesn't really matter, but that's kind of how I, how I think of it. No, no, I don't think you're wrong in, in your perspective and your analysis of it there, because I think you, you know, you are looking at it from, from the right way. Um, the reason, as I say, the, the reason I described it as a process, a sales process is because it is a,
[00:13:26] it's a clear journey that you're walking through in those steps. Whereas last week we spoke about challenger. Now challenge is a clear methodology because it's, it's kind of that, um, well, it's that challenge. You know, you, you are challenging the, the, you know, the status quo, you're challenging the, uh, the, the, the mindset you're challenging. So there's not really necessarily a structure to that. And that's why I think spin is very handy because if you're a,
[00:13:56] aware of the challenger situation and you're aware of the challenger methodology, then you can integrate spin into that. Now, yeah, the, we, we chose the ones that we're doing for, for a particular reason, but essentially, you know, you've got, I suppose you've got, you've got challenger where, where you're helping the customer to reframe their point of view, right?
[00:14:21] But then spin is helping them kind of walk through a methodology to understand the alternative. Point of view. Well, the challenger might, the challenger process, a framework within which it can work and help the customer to understand. So in, if, if I was starting to think about this too, as you were describing it, I sort of see spin like being at, again, I, I hate to keep coming back to this, like a tactic that you can employ inside challenger.
[00:14:49] Challenger being the, yes, you're trying to give them a vision and you're trying to articulate a, a future state that perhaps they didn't fully articulate the customer or that you've been, you know, you have more conviction for, or gives them more inspiration to, to, to go there with you. And that is overarching. It is saying, okay, I understand what your situation is.
[00:15:18] And here is one articulation of the promised land. And here's how I would get you there and what it would be like, you know, on the other side of this. And have you thought about this kind of outcome? But then when you're trying to see if there is a way to get to that, um, promised land, spin comes into use when you're having, um, more of those exploration conversations. That's right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:15:45] And then that's why I find it frustrating. You know, personally, I find it frustrating when people go, oh, we only use spin here. Yeah. And I'm like, no, that's a mistake. Spin is, and yeah, so I'm coming back to that terminology that I used at the beginning with it being a sales process because simply because I feel that the challenger methodology
[00:16:11] is the right one to use because overall, of course, you know, the status quo is your biggest competitor always. Oh, all the time. And if you can challenge that great, but very few people can in a good and consistent way. And spin gives you the framework within which that you can do that. And so therefore, because you can use spin in every element of the entire sales process
[00:16:38] from prospecting right the way through to, you know, key account management and customer service. It therefore, to me, is a process in itself because it's a methodology that gives you a soft work to work within another. And I think the combination is really important because what we're trying to, you know, to build here. And I don't think you and I, we don't go, no, we only do challenger.
[00:17:06] We only do spin because that would be unrealistic. But that's how a lot of organizations work. And I think that is where it falls down. And then they go, oh, we use spin, but it doesn't really work. No, because you're so stuck within a particular box. You've got to be flexible and take the good things from different areas and build them in into something that works for your business. But I do think the, you know, I do think the framework and the methodology of challenger is
[00:17:34] very clever one because it does help to give the customer that new idea, new framework and think differently. But spin really just gives you the platform that you can do it within and then help them to work towards that. Okay. What is the alternative ending? And then next week we'll, you know, we'll obviously discuss something.
[00:17:59] Well, I could also see it being perhaps spin is a more appropriate choice for something that's more discreet and contained and even smaller. Right. So it's less about the big vision. It's more about being like, like so often in my situation, the client or the prospect will come in asking for the solution. Like they specifically say, I want you to build X.
[00:18:25] And, uh, and so then I have to basically use spin, which I've never realized I'm doing before to kind of go hold on. Like, great that you're so convicted that that's the answer to your problem. But can you explain how you got to that decision? And I can see, oh, I see if I actually broke it down into situation, problem, implication, implication, and then, you know, what the benefit is, I might be able to more easily get to my own state to say, oh yeah, great idea. Yes, that's the right way to do it.
[00:18:55] Or, oh, I see how you got there, but what about this alternative consideration? And so spin very appropriate in a very contained situation like that. Yeah, it can work really well. You know, so this is the good thing with spin is that it can be applied in like very basic telesales calls as well. Yes. So, and that's what I was meaning earlier about you can use it in the prospecting stage as
[00:19:23] well as in the customer services stage, because you don't need to go so deep, so complex. You're trying to pre-qualify this customer. So, you know, you're picking up the phone going, you know, based on what we've seen in similar organizations to yours, this and this and this issue is happening. And, you know, how are you currently dealing with that situation in your business? And, you know, who's affected by that? Where do you see potential gaps? And, you know, what do you think are the next steps?
[00:19:50] It's kind of just really, really condensed version of it, but you're using spin at that early stage just to qualify that customer. And then at the next stage, you know, even in a complex sale, it adapts accordingly. And that's why it's a good methodology. You know, I like that. And again, I think it's very appropriate in a more straightforward sales situation as well. It's a very, very obvious fit for that kind of a situation in my opinion.
[00:20:18] Well, thanks for introducing me to it and articulating the fact that there's just a name for some of the things that a lot of us probably do naturally if we're good at what we do. And I look forward to learning a little bit more about Sandler, which is one that I've probably heard the most of it before. So we'll see how accurate my understanding of that is when we get to that conversation next week. Looking forward to it. As always, Andy, it is a pleasure. Thank you. And thanks, everybody, for tuning in and listening.
[00:20:46] Please go to tntimbits.com and you'll get a lot more information and back episodes and ways to contact us, which we always appreciate. Andy, till next time. Thanks again. Been a pleasure. Thank you.